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Health Care Reform Opponents Resort to Mob Rule |
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The extremist fringe of the anti-health care reform movement—with a wink and a nod from more mainstream health care opponents—is using mob rule to disrupt town hall meetings and community forums set for the congressional recess. Mob rule tactics stopped the Florida vote count during the contested 2000 presidential elections, ultimately turning the presidency over to George W. Bush—a strategy now emulated by the anti-health care reform lobby.
As Slinkerwink at DailyKos wrote yesterday:
The crazies are coming out in full force to local town hall and community events being held by Democratic lawmakers—with only one goal—to interrupt the Democratic lawmaker on health care reform, and shout right-wing talking points at him or her to scare the rest of his or her constituents at that event by sowing confusion and fear in the crowd.
The coalition of extremists groups, including FreedomWorks, Right Principles, American Liberty Alliance, even has written game plan. The anti-government group Right Principles is telling people how to take over a meeting.
Be disruptive early and often. You need to rock the boat early in the rep’s presentation. Watch for an opportunity to yell out. The goal is to rattle him…stand up and shout out. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.
At town hall meeting in Setauket, N.Y., Rep. Tim Bishop (D-N.Y.) was confronted by a loud mob that yelled criticisms of his stands on health care, energy and the economy and shouted down his answers. He even suspended some scheduled town halls.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with positions I hold….But there is no point in meeting with my constituents and [to] listen to them and have them listen to you if what is basically an unruly mob prevents you from having an intelligent conversation.
On Sunday, a group of protestors showed up at a town hall in Philadelphia with Sen. Arlen Specter (D-Pa.) and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. They shouted and booed loudly enough to drown out remarks from both officials and questions from the audience.
On America Blog, Joe Sudbay describes these tactics as “thuggery that undermines democratic principles.”
But thuggery seems just fine with some Republicans who, like Rep. Pete Sessions (R-Texas), chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, told Politico the days of civil town hall meetings are “over.” When asked if the Republican Party would use similar mob and shout tactics against Democrats, he said simply, “Wait until next year.”
As Think Progress reported last week, these disruptive tactics have been used at a growing number of meetings and forums.
This growing phenomenon is often marked by violence and absurdity. Recently, right-wing demonstrators hung Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-Md.) in effigy outside of his office. Missing from the reporting of these stories is the fact that much of these protests are coordinated by public relations firms and lobbyists who have a stake in opposing President Obama’s reforms.
The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform.
The union movement has always supported free speech rights and the right to demonstrate and picket. But that’s not what these disruptions are about—they are crude and anti-democratic efforts to silence speakers, elected officials, in fact, in meetings with constituents—and intimidate people’s exercise of associational rights.
Thousands of supporters for health care reform rallied June 25 in Washington, D.C., and with Congress on recess in August, union members and our allies plan to pack town halls and hold rallies across the nation to convey the message that Congress needs to enact health care reform now. Later today we will have more on recess actions on health care reform.
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The need to erase the blemish of illegal immigration prompted Congress to enact the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986. The IRCA toughened criminal sanctions for employers who hired illegal aliens, denied illegal aliens federally funded welfare benefits, and legitimized some aliens through an amnesty program–EXCEPT THESE LAWS NEVER WERE ENFORCED? Neither the federal government, nor state county have denied most benefits to illegal immigrants. That is why one state–California–is involved in a monstrous budget deficit? California–THE SANCTUARY STATE– has been overrun with millions of illegal entrants, as with Arizona and other border states. An the ingredients of federal law has been a breeding ground for entitlements that have been gravely compromised by pandering to minority caucuses REMEMBER THERE ARE MANY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS, WHO WANT ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS ON HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN BE ALLOWED INTO THE US?.
It would be untrue to accuse just the Democrats for this, because all politicians have been involved in distracting–THE PEOPLE–from the real issues that cost them billions of dollars. The population falls for these distractions every time, so they can hit you with either higher taxes or give huge tax reimbursements to their corporate comrades. Illegal immigration is a major depletion of every tax treasury, throughout this land. Giving any kind of AMNESTY will enhance the predictable–OVERPOPULATION. The complete neglect of our interstate highway system, tunnels and bridges is just the slow eroding of our infrastructure. In the near future the population growth will explode, to over another hundred million people. IT would be an unmentionable catastrophe to open the doors wide at the border, giving millions of illegal immigrant’s expressway to a path to citizenship. Already our Senate has voted to give illegal immigrants and families a right to access the new health care provisions–WHICH THE TAXPAYER WILL PAY FOR?
THEREFORE THIS IS A FREE WELFARE FOR ALL PARIAH BUSINESSES THAT STILL HIRE ILLEGAL LABORERS.
You must decide the future of future generations, because just my ranting will have very little influence on the power brokers in Washington. Call your Senator or Congressman at 202-224-3121 and impress on the people you vote into office that you want an alternative to the predatory health care insurers. You want the right to choose? That includes the Universal government run system that certainly isn’t any worse than the profiteering insurers. That you also want your political representative to sever any path to citizenship, but to enforce a firm, permanent–ALL ENCOMPASSING– E-Verify, police 287(g) enforcement and not to rescind the no-match letter or weaken ICE raids. Tell them you are a voter and convey to them, as you voted them into office as you can remove them, just as easy? Read the naked true facts by GOOGLING–NUMBERSUSA
The Right wing haters are running scared and pulling out all the stops in a futile attempt to stop meaningfull Health Care Reform.
I urge all my Brothers & Sisters, both Active and Retired to get to these various Town Hall Meetings RE: Health Care and let our Representatives know we need Universal Health Care NOW!!! for ALL Americans….
We have Victory in our Grasp. Lets do everything we can so that it doesn’t slip out this time…
Now’s the time to form union and community defense guards that will protect the healthcare discussions and whatever else comes up.
Look to our members for this protecting our civil liberties. Better than calling the cops who’d likely be assigned to protect the thugs.
Press Secretary Robert Gibbs called them the “Brooks Brothers Brigade”
See Steve Benen, http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019353.php
Why are they not wearing brown shirts? That’s exactly how these fascists are acting, a playbook straight out of the 1930’s. And the latest batch of Pavlov’s dopes seem to be eating this crap up hook line and sinker. Well I devoted my latest cartoon to these “Corporate Dupes”, it’s up on my website now.
http://www.whatnowtoons.com
Left of center political cartoons
Perhaps progressives should be prepared to “remove” these thugs from future town hall meetings?
If they persist call police. If the cops won’t remove them, well then it is up to us to defend our freedom of speech rights and take on the nazis any way they choose. It may sound crude, but when dealing with thugs, we cannot be civil. It just doesn’t work.
ChicanoWobbly ,
I like your style… If I were at the same town meeting you attend
I would help you extricate those Haters.
Though we may reside on opposite sides of this Great Nation we are united in our struggle…
Hi!!
I went to Dennis Kucinich on Sunday in Aurora Illinois, and was asked to “please shut up,” as I was asking one of the volunteers of ways to link to a website to get to a web address which may have video taped the speech which he gave that day; I immediately looked around the auditorium of Prisco Community Center and noticed several people speaking even more loudly than I, and then noticed that the man who’d essentially told me to shut my mouth, had returned to his seat, which was in the middle of the auditorium, and then began to wonder to myself why did this person approach specifically me, which didn’t make sense to me, nor to the person I was talking with. What almost immediately came to mind, was that perhaps this individual may have been trying to start some sort of conflict, but that in my mind, I was so happy to see Kucinich live, that I decided not just tell the man off, out of respect for the occasion. I believe that there may well be people on various pay rolls which may deliberately be showing up on occasion to such events as “Single Payer Health Care” reform events, so workers beware!!
I formally belonged to the H.E.R.E, and also the Teamsters, and as such, well understand the need for adequate health care-not health insurance-as well as the need, and the importance of the “Employee Free Choice Act ,” because this is what will save our country from ruin, not bombs.
The tactics of these crazies are reminiscent of the brown shirts in Nazi Germany–tactics that worked by intimidating others by sheer volume and potential for violence. These are the same tactics used by some of those on the right-wing who encourage violence against abortion clinics or providers–scare people. We should all be on the alert for any town hall meetings our Senators or Congress members have in our districts and attend to be supportive of health care reform. These crazies are bused in and funded by insurance companies who like things just the way they are!
Thugs shouldn’t be tolerated. If these people can not act decent
-they be escorted to the door. Maybe a peace bond should be
put out on these people. By the way, a few years ago in Memphis
Tennessee when a woman politely asked a question of GW Bush
she was promptly taken out of the building by the Secret Service.
It was hearing on SS reform.
A lot of fun could be had with these nuts by sending them bogus town hall meeting notices and watching them run all over town. Or send them to Republican town hall meetings.
Baggers bring it on! Not the first time working people stood against the corporate mob Fools they paid the Pinkertons and you do it for free!
So just what is the AFL-CIO going to do about these thugs???
They’re like vermin. One successful disruption emboldens them. We’re about 2 steps away from a nascent fascism developing in the US. Are the trade unions going to just sit back and complain? Or are they actually going to DO SOMETHING.
If Baucus had single payer advocates arrested and joked “There arn’t enough police”, then these rightwingnutsjobs should be arrested for disruption of a public meeting. Michaelg50: Great idea! These pinheads sent many a voter in Florida to the wrong precinct just to keep them from voting for Gore!
I don’t know whether they’re pinheads or not. It has been verified by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and by Greg Palast (an American reporter for the BBC,) that massive voter fraud had taken place during both the 2000, and 2004 Presidential elections. Google either name, along with voter fraud, and see what turns up. This sort of thing, is of course a major threat to our democracy. What’s even more stunning to me, are the lightweight punitive measures that were taken against some of those caught for committing massive voter fraud.
Who are these people? Is this the same 10 people who comprised the recent tax revolt Tea Parties, “Peasants for Plutocracy?”
Call the FBI. These people have organized from an organization called Freedomworks run by ex congressman Dick Armey. They have conspired to obstruct government operations.
sign these petitions for health care and efca
http://bit.ly/HR676
http://bit.ly/single_payer_ross
http://bit.ly/EFCA
Why aren’t we standing at the doors, requiring that people with these corporate liars, and their ignorant teabagger mentality puppets, show us some driver’s license or picture legitimate picture I.D. proving that they actually live in the district of the Congress person who is holding the Town Hall.
Those who’ve been bused in can’t enter, they are not constituents!
We should make sure they can’t bring in any of their hateful signs or ridiculous lying bumper stickers to the meeting.
Once the meeting starts, if they are standing around the sides and the back, we need to stand in front of them and block them. (I would suggest and accidental elbow when needed - but of course, I would never do that - cough)
And when they try to shout down our congress person, we need to be more vocal and tell them to sit down, have some respect for REAL democracy.
If we let them continue at this rate, we will never get better contracts because of the cost of health care. If we can get this done right, we can get more pay and grow our locals.
These people are the same people who wanted and tried to kill off working families and the middle class. It’s up to us to show them that they can’t get away with this kind of crap anymore.
As a team, we can do this!! See ya at the next Town Hall.
To let people know, not all people who are against Congress’ health care plan are thugs and/or Republicans. I for one am a Democrat and i am against the plan.
yes, insurance premiums and out of pocket costs have gone up so much, so fast, that there are poeple who cannot afford to pay or have a tough time paying.
the bottom line I am against it for one, is due to the additional taxes being levied against business’s who have a certain dollar amount or more, which means that they will have to add the extra cost to the price of their products and/or services. Which means, we as consumers will be paying more.
2nd, no one has choice if they want health care or not under the plan. If one chooses not to have insurance but to pay everything out of pocket, that person would have to pay a 2.5% penalty.
3rd, despite popular opinion in Congress, after 5 years under the plan, all people will have to leave their private insurance and will have to be under the government plan.
The solution is not to have a govenment health plan for those of working age and who can work, but to have Congress place caps on insurance premiums and have caps on what the medical industry charges so that most people can afford medical care.
Also, in addition to caps, there should be a fund that people can contribute “x” number dollars to on their tax returns, so that the money in the fund can be used by people who make too much for medicad but not enough to pay for premiums for a family of any number.
Not all who are against a public health care plan are quacks, just most! A public health care is the most cost effective, and this has been proven again and again. There are those who complain about medicare and medicaid, however, it appears that the majority of people who use these programs have few complaints, and far fewer complaints than patients who have their doctors being told what to do by yet another sort of quack; the business associates of insurance companies, of which 99% have never been to medical school, nor served internships. It is high time to get rid of their monstrous bureaucracies and develop a medical system which actually delivers health care as opposed to yet more insurance premiums at ever increasing costs
I was around in ‘93 to see this thuggery to defeat health care reform. I was around in 2000 to watch the Thugery on TV to stop the recount in Florida. History will repeat itself once again if we, supporters of health care reform, allow this thuggery to prevail. One method is to shame the thugs to hear the people who have been oppressed by big pharma and the insurance companies. Thuggery will defeat us again if we allow it to overwhelm us. Hope this link still works on a history lesson. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#32277034
People only raise their voices when they are not being heard. When the polled majority of Americans are against nationalized healthcare and the governemt efectively says, “So?”, and does what ever they want anyway, people speak up loudly.
BTW, if you look up the definition of “Fascism” that you all speak so loudly against, you will find the following: (notice the credit given to dictionary.com, which is not a conservative website)
fas⋅cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm]
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
Correlation 1:
“…led by a dictator having complete power”: Barack Obama and the unaccountable ‘czars’ are exercising powers they do not have under the constitution, and I would not be surprised anymore, based on the things I have seen him do, if he reached in for more control. What a mistake it was voting for this man. We all thought he was out for us…on our side… Please. He was only out for himself and those many other power hungry individuals. He was only a velvet-tounged orator who knew just which words to use.
Correlation 2:
“…forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism”: That would be you guys talking about silencing the people who are speaking out at the town hall meetings”
Correlation 3:
“regimenting all industry” (Regimenting defined by same dictionary.com: “to form into an organized group, usually for the purpose of rigid or complete control”): Um, that would be the government taking control of the once great American auto industry, the banking industry, and soon HEALTHCARE, and the list will go on and on, if government is given the chance.
Correlation 4:
“emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism” (in this case, nationalism can be defined as “Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.”). I guess in this case, those who stand against this current government invasion into our rights, would make us fascists, as we do still love our country and would like to remain a sovereign nation… or would it be better to be under control of the UN or another foreign country too? By borrowing trillions from China, to the point where they are beginning to question the stability of our economy and ability to pay it back, we are affectively doing just that. Someday they will WANT THEIR MONEY BACK. As for the racism part of the definition of fascists… I guess we all saw good examples of that a few weeks ago, coming from a certain leader and a certain college professor, one of whom was awfully quick to pass judgement before gathering all of the facts.
So…… previous definitions provided and correlations made, WHO are the fascists? Perhaps those posting nonsense should learn their words before using them, because it seems that it is you previous posters and those who will follow that are, by definition, ‘fascists’, along with those who would be .
Do so many of you honestly believe that fact that they don’t want to destroy the health care industry in America with what is certain to be a government run fiasco, makes the HUGE MAJORITY of Americans “fascists”? The thugs who are currently running the government are ramming garbage down the throats of the HUGE MAJORITY and you guys are calling the protesters fascists and unruly mobs for speaking out (and exercising ‘free speech’ in the process)? BTW, I have noticed that most of the “THUGS” were older Americans, many of whom either fought against fascists in WWII, or knew/lost someone who did). The problem is, that you simply don’t care even if you did notice. To think they fought against the true fascists FOR THE FREEDOM OF THE LIKES OF YOU. What a shame.
Here’s the truth about free speech: This post will either be deleted or never posted because those who are controlling the message are the MOB. And you all talk about fre speech. When yours is gone, think back to those “fascists”, who fought against it as the MINORITY shoved trash down the throats of all Americans. If such is not the case, you out of control ranting fools, will just pass judgement against the majority, of which I am a part, and call us all childish names and use words you don’t understand in response.
When your family member (or you yourself) won’t be able to get the care they (or you) need, because the government ran healthcare into the ground the way they did Medicare, Medicaid, the US Postal Service, Social Security, all to the point of bankruptcy, you can blame yourselves. Then you will cry for someone to fix it, yelling at the townhall meetings, “I want some sort of entitlement”… and it will be to late, because the Big O, will have spent all of the money, and that of your kids and grandkids.
You people are so completely brainwashed, illogical, and unreasonable. YOU guys sound like the mob to me. YOU guys sound like total whackjobs. To think that I almost voted for the Big O to keep the other fool out of office. At least I had enough sense to pull my head out before I did.
The sad thing is that this is a waste of words, because too many of you, or at least the posters in the blogs above( ^^^^ ) and below ( VVVV ), are either too stupid, too foolish, too trusting, too naive, or too nuts to see the truth anyway and fight for their rights. You say:
“Call the FBI!!!”
“If they persist call police. If the cops won’t remove them, well then it is up to us to defend our freedom of speech rights and take on the nazis any way they choose. It may sound crude, but when dealing with thugs, we cannot be civil. It just doesn’t work.”
(AND YOU USE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN THE SAME SENTENCE THAT YOU ADVOCATE TAKING ANOTHER’S AWAY!!!!! LOL)
“They stole the election!!!”
“Progressives should remove them from town hall meeting for speaking their mind to their representatives! Only people who agree should be allowed to speak!!!!”
“Now’s the time to form union and community defense guards that will protect the healthcare discussions and whatever else comes up…” (”because only WE, the minority, should be allowed to have a voice!!”)
And you people call those speaking up at town halls the whack jobs. Good grief, fools. They are the ones trying to protect all of us.
Wake up. Try something else. Kool-Aid sucks…..
The definition of fascism which you posted is only a partial definition, and your correlations have little or anything to do with actual fascism. Fascism is an Italian word which specifically defines some of the Italian state’s actions under the dictatorship of Mussolini; many correct correlations have been made between many of Hitler’s actions before, and during world war two; however, your attempts at making correlations between fascism and the Obama administration are senseless and have less to do with reality, than they have to do with your tunnel vision and outright ignorance.
BTW, I am shocked that you posted a dissenting view. It is a first and IS to your credit… I still think you lick Obama’s boots. He can do no wrong in wayyyyyyy too many of your eyes.
Editors: What you really mean is that you review the posts several times a day that fit within the commenting guidelines (or whatever), weeding out those that don’t fit into your agendas.
Freedom of speech… please.
They post your comments, however senseless. Who has an “agenda?” The last time I heard the “agenda” campaign is when Lou Dobbs was questioned by Amy Goodman on a Democracy Now broadcast about close to 1500 distortions and misquotes that he’d in the past stated while attempting to justify his own peculiar form of racism on his show, and then accused her of having an “agenda.”
What’s your agenda Mr. jbleau “Agenda?” Better yet; Could you explain just exactly, how you arrived at the conclusion that President Barrack Obama has some relationship to fascism, and how this relates somehow, to a public health care plan? This particular blog is about health care, and not about the personal political ambitions of yourself. This issue goes far beyond party lines, this issue is about the human right of every American to adequate health care.
Why don’t you question your other posters about how they came to the conclusion that people speaking up for their rights has anything to do with their being fascist, as has been asserted?
As for Obama being a facist, I will give you partial credit in that I will give you this: By definition, a fascist is an extreme right-winger. Obama is certainly no right winger, but his views are so very far left, that he has come almost all the way around the circle to join the whackos on the far, far right and in many ways is worse.
Telling the majority what they need, ignoring their wishes and their speech, while exalting the wishes of the ultra-liberal minority, defines a dictator in my book. If Obama has not move toward the dictatorial end of the leadership spectrum with his unaccountable scars, I am not quite sure what you would call it. Additionally, intimidating those who in the dissenting majority by telling those in the non-dissenting minority to send dissenting emails to the White House, is dangerous and would NEVER have been accepted by the liberals in this country under the idiot, G.W. Bush. N-E-V-E-R. The fact that the goalposts move when the libs are in power baffles me. What makes these kind of things better under the Obama administration?
The man, Obama, and his democrat cronies in congress are ramming healthcare down the throat of the American people when polls are telling the story of people who, like myself, are perfectly happy with their healthcare. I don’t want, nor do I need Obama’s government telling me what I can and cannot have treated. I also do not feel that it is my responsibility to pay for everyone else’s healthcare. I live in America and Obama can shove his socialism where the sun does not shine.
If you want healthcare to become affordable, if that is really even the issue, as is stated, pass reforms preventing families from suing Dr. Jones for letting 95 year old granny for $10 million when she dies on the operating table. You cannot save everyone. Outrageous awards in such cases drive up the cost of healthcare. In turn, doctors are forced to pay outrageous malpractice insurance premiums and are forced to send patients for unneccesary tests simply to cover their a$$ and hospitals are required to keep ridiculous records to protect themselves from those who like to shout, “I’m gonna sue you!”. It is completely unnecessary to send Bob for the same tests he had a week ago at Hospital A, where nothing was found to be wrong, when he goes to Hospital B and they cannot use the test results from a week ago. The irony of the whole thing, is that in far too many cases, Bob, is actually not even a US citizen and he is here illegally from some other countryand has no insurance… and we all have to pay for all of his tests as well as the doctor’s malpractice insurance, because even he, Bob, can sue for malpractice when he does not like the results of his treatment that were given to him by hard working nurses and doctors - all only human. These are only a couple of the reasons healthcare is so expensive. My take: If you have not put into the system in a truly meaningful way, you can’t take out of it. Let YOUR country take care of you, not mine. I did not break the law to get in. I did not break the law by stealing someone else’s SSN. I am not sending my illegally obtained earnings, at a rate of 75% or more, back to my country.
Not everyone can be saved. Not everyone is treatable.
The sad thing, is that such tort reforms or restrictions will never be passed by the lawyers that run our congress and presidency, because it would hurt lawyers, who’s interests are the only ones they are really looking out for… and those of ‘paying’ special interest lobbyists.
BTW, if you really think that treatment will get better under the government’s healthcare, you are living in fantasy land. The system will be overloaded and under His plan, 90 year old granny may not even get treated. SHe might just recieve “end of life counselling”, while she get placed on the (long) list. The young and the healthy will be treated as priority and treatment will be substandard at best. Cancer and other disease-related deaths will increase as people get put on a waiting list and then YOU will scream for better healthcare, because the healthcare you fought for and touted as gold, will be seriously inferior, even by your standards, and it might just be you on the receiving (or not receiving) end of government healthcare.
You people are fools if you think this will help. If you want to lower healthcare costs, change the things that really cause the cost of healthcare to be so high. It’s not as simple as “greedy insurance companies”. Blanket statements about such things are stupid. Under government beaurocracy-run healthcare, you can be guaranteed greedy beaurocrats, regardless of party affiliation, AS HISTORY ALWAYS SHOWS…
Finally, name one government program that was EVER run efficiently. Try. You can’t do it. They all end up costing far more than ever expected.
NONE of this was ‘fed to me’ by the Republican machine, you dopes, and I would scream it at some dirtbag politician at a town hall, given the chance, because it is the only way the creeps would listen… if they are FORCED to do so. I’m not even a freaking Republican. THEY are just as bad as the Democrats.
Lawmakers conducting public hearings need to get some nerve and control these situations. Do you think Republicans would stand for this unruliness at their events? No way. They would have people trying to shout down speakers removed from the meeting room. Democrats must do that too.
Honor rights but enforce order–
1. The Congressperson or Senator states rules (time limit on questions/comments and no second question/comment until all others who want to have had their chance to speak) and expectations (civility and respect).
2. The rules are enforced.
3. Security personnel evict those who break the rules and disrupt the meeting.
MI Union has the best approach. Enforce Rules of Order and allow all comers to have a turn to be heard. Turing something as critical as healthcare reform into an emotionally hysterical shouting match with distorted name calling by anybody is a disservice everybody.
I wrote elsewhere on these forums that I am unconvinced that the plan we’ve been hearing is anything but a rough draft - not a polished, well considered piece of legislation.
The government running pretty much anything is usually not the best alternative. The government reforming and regulating the industry can be compromised by special interests, but is a far better role since it allows congress the distance needed to call the bureaucrats to account.
Tort reform that frees providers from undue liability and rewards forward thinking such as moving treatment from the ER to the clinic, ending the “pre-existing condition” clauses, creating vouchers for those who cannot afford insurance empowers them to choose their own provider (a benefit that most union workers do not have!), and so forth.
We would all be better served to open our ears to well reasoned thought before we choose the best course. I do know one thing for certain. There has never been a government program that;
1. Delivers as promised.
2. Contains it’s own costs.
3. Doesn’t become an end in itself with the original purpose lost.
4. Once started, ever ends.
If we play it right, they are helping our cause. I do not know how to play it right, I admit. But, what they are doing works for us. The anti abortionists cause people to disagree with them due to their extremism…….we can surely make this work for us.
Somehow we need to get our message out in a civil way, but let them do their thing……they are shooting their own feet……let them do it………just as when the ku klux klan came to our town, we were told to ignore them……..ignoring them took away the attention that they sought……with this hate group regarding healthcare, let them go on, they are the ones who are turning people away……..
Pull your head out. People prtesting are not hate groups as you assert. They are normal Americans who have had enough of the government sticking their noses where they don’t belong. How can you stick your nose so far up Obama’s you know what, when you head your head stuck so far in your own you know where?
What is the point of the town hall meetings anyway? If you go to a town hall meeting expecting to get any serious answers to your questons chances are you’re going to be disappointed. Most of our elected officials, by their own admission, haven’t even read the bill. How can they answer our questions? There is one thing for certain I know about the bill. The amendment to verify the legitimacy of those applying for coverage under the bill was defeated What does this mean? It means illegals can, and undoubtedly will, be covered! And that alone is a MAJOR flaw!
What the hell is the rush anyway? We’ve watied this long. Let’s be honest here. Are a few more weeks or months going to matter? A job worth doing is worth doing right. If this bill is rushed into law without even being read, let alone understood, aren’t we just asking for trouble? A reform of this magnitude, if there is indeed any reform to it, deserves a lot of thought and consideration.
My advice to the folks in Washinton? Count to ten, take a deep breath and read the damn bill. And remember this, while you may be immune to any changes this bill might generate, your grown children, grandchildren and other future descendants, unless they happen to be elected to Congress, will not!
The Bill of Rights guarantees us the the right to peaceful assembly. Why do we allow the fascists to use the tactics used by the Nazi’s to disrupt meetings of peaceful citizens?
Dear Sir or Madam: We have a constitutional right to peaceful assembly. The mobsgters have a right to express themselves, however, their right to express themselves is interfering with the right of people to assemble peacefully. It’s a no brainer to realize that a persons “rights” end precisely and exactly at the point where they interfere with another persons rights. Geepaw
I resent the comments that people who are protesting the health care bill at the town hall meetings are some kind of kooks or nuts. These are angry people who saw how the stimulus bill was rushed through without any senators or reps even reading it, and now they want to rush through a health care bill.
If you contact your senator or rep by phone, email or mail why you are concerned, you receive back a standard canned reply that they “are so happy to hear from you” and they will tell you how wonderful this bill is and that they are voting for it.
Seniors are unhappy that the bill takes away from Medicare to cover new people on the plan. If you are over age 60, you are not considered worth anything but basic medical care, and the required consultations on the end of life are beyond belief. Did you notice that many of the people at the town hall meetings are seniors? Angry seniors and people who don’t want the government handling their health care, people who are happy with their health care and don’t want to be forced into government insurance.
There is not even an agreement on the number of people without insurance. Obama says 47 million, the census has lesser figures and analysts who checked out the bill say that if you deduct illegal residents and those people who could buy insurance and choose not to do so, the figure goes down to about 20 million. Why should the other 250+ million who have insurance have to be disrupted for the convenience of those 20 million? I would also have more faith in the bill if Congress hadn’t exempted themselves from it. If it’s not good enough for Congress, it’s not good enough for the rest of us.
If you go to a nice restaurant for dinner, and the steak is inedible, you send it back for a replacement. This bill is offering a “steak” that is really the boot soles of the local barn cleaner. Send it back! Listen to smart people who can help rewrite the bill into a better version. Switzerland has a combination of private and government insurance that works well. Did anyone see what works in other countries before they set up this bill? Just send it back until they get it right….
Granny on the warpath who will be at town meetings asking questions and not taking BS from our elected officials for an answer….and I don’t give a rat’s hiney if some people think I am a kook or a nut!
Granny OTW - The consultation argument is not accurate as it is being stated. I am 56 and have had a healthcare proxy and DNR for 14 years. I learned the hard way when my wife passed away suddenly at 36. That is what is being talked about. I urge even the youngest poster here to give it some thought and make similar arrangements. You can’t do it when you’re unconscious and critical decisions must be made.
Limiting care on the other hand is something our otherwise eloquent President has mangled a bit. Doctors are notorious for being wrong on the long term picture. Many people are capable of leading productive lives well into their 80’s. Others, like my wife, pass away at ridiculously early ages. This is something I need to hear more explicitly explained and without the palliative hyperbole and catch phrases that are being thrown around.
The concept of the Swiss model, where everyone is required to have health insurance coverage and the government subsidizes the indigent, has elements that sound attractive but some that would be unpalatable for many here. One attractive element is that insurers are not allowed a profit for basic coverage but must depend on selling supplemental a la carte coverage for their profits. Semi private and private room coverage, dentistry, alternative medicine coverage are examples of supplemental coverage items.
According to a report in Medical News Today the average premium for a family under the basic plan is $8,167 with an individual spending level of $3,781. The same article quotes a figure of $10,880 with an individual spending level of $5,635. However the two cost figures are not necessarily comparable. American plans include items that the Swiss basic plan does not.
That said, the mechanics of the plan are worth studying to see to what extent they can be applied here.
The Swiss plan is great, however, all private insurance in Switzerland is regulated in the same context as public health care, and any insurance company caught violating such health care rules are considered felonies and subsequently prosecuted. No wonder that when a whole host of American pharmaceutical, and “health insurance companies went on a campaign blitz last year to try and get Swedish public to buy health insurance as opposed to their public national health care system, they all had to high tail it back to the states because in Europe it is considered a bribe when an insurance company gives campaign contributions to political candidates; they feel much more comfortable here where they can continue to be the great predators of the ill Americans.
Roy - Perhaps I am misreading your comment, but why the “however”? That is exactly the point I was looking at.
The government has set up a basic level of insurance that all citizens are required to have. Shenanigans by the insurers are effectively and harshly dealt with. The concept that the government sets the parameters and the insurers must sell those basic policies ‘at cost’ is a great stroke.
You can afford private suites? Good for you, just pay for it. You can’t afford basic coverage? We’ll help you out with sliding scale vouchers.
This limits the government’s expense (taxes), allows insurers to stay in business (jobs!), and covers all citizens (healthcare for all!). It also allows employers and unions to negotiate and provide coverage for a higher level of benefit.
“Corporate Dupes in Action”
Why are these Right Wing anti Health Care mobsters not wearing brown shirts? That’s exactly how these fascists are acting, a playbook straight out of the 1930’s. And this latest batch of Pavlov’s dopes seem to be eating this crap up hook line and sinker. Well I devoted my latest cartoon to these “Corporate Dupes” It’s my latest Left of Center Political Cartoon, up at my website now, http://www.whatnowtoons.com.
As a nurse, I definitely believe that healthcare, insurance and tort reform need to take place. I see far too many American citizens who have a hard time paying for the medical care they need and have put off having basic check ups done due to cost that they end up in the hospital with advanced disease states. I also see the many illegals who are users of the system and see hospitals as their free healthcare for all their needs. This abuse needs to stop! All Americans should have health care long before illegals. Health care reform must also include tort reform. I have to word what I say to patients in a way to avoid being sued. I cannot say that I am sorry a family member died during a surgery for fear their family will sue the hospital. Even though all was done to save them. I have to say that I am sorry for their loss. We walk on egg shells and that interferes with our ability to care for those who need us. I think that going to electronic medical records and tieing all hospitals together will decrease cost and improve health care. There are a lot of people who hospital hop and have the same tests done at each. This is a waste of money for insurance companies and will deplete any system that is in place. We also need to reduce or eliminate abuse of hospitals as homeless shelters. During bad weather, we see patients who are non compliant with their medical care, refuse tests and treatment, but live like kings with pampering as health care staff tend to their every wish.
Yes, the system needs to change, but as a nurse, working with doctors and other health care workers, many of us do not believe that the current proposals are the right direction. We will have far too many patients and not enough hospitals and staff to tend to them or the money or resources to take care of everyone without massive tax increases that will hurt those that this is intended to help. Quality of healthcare will decline for every one of us because of this.
Try checking them out on sourcewatch.com
Oops! I meant sourcewatch.org
FREEDOM OF SPEECH! What a novel concept, and one that is being redefined by the Obama radicals and AFL-CIO minions. I attend Tea Parties. I am against Nationalized Healthcare. I am against Cap and Trade. I am against Card Check. I have the right to speak out against such policies. No one pays me to do this. Events are organized at the grass roots level…paid for by $5 and $10 contributions by individuals who have the same desire to remain free and independent from government control. Many others have demonstrated publically….marching and shouting and carrying signs….abortion rights activists, civil rights activists, illegal immigrants marches, gay rights, etc., etc. It is a lawful and accepted form of protesting. Now it’s our turn and you can’t handle it. WHAT?? Someone dare to express their opinions if they don’t support yours? It is crystal clear that the unions and Obama are in bed together. I hope you keep each other warm. I will be out with my signs and my voice doing everything I can to keep government out of my life. I am a lover of freedom, individual accountability, and individual responsibility. I don’t need Big Brother telling me how to live, what to do with my money, or what I can say!! Corporate funded mobs!!! Give me a break!! Would just ONE of you put some facts behind that accusation? It must be those big, bad insurance companies that are behind this outrage!! It couldn’t possibly be that it’s THE PEOPLE, could it? People just like me. Americans who work, pay their taxes, obey the laws, don’t advocate killing or muzzling those that don’t agree with us, lawfully demonstrating and expressing our opinions, and trying to keep our Republic our free as possible. If you can’t handle that, you’re part of the problem!
What facts do you have to support that the unions & President Barrack Obama are in bed together? What facts do you have which indicate you’re freedom of speech is being limited or denied? Do you think or feel you’re being persecuted? It is lawful for people in the U.S.A. to protest in public. These outbursts at health care reform meetings throughout the U.S.A. aren’t merely an exercise in free speech, they are deliberate attempts to subvert the very democratic processes which enable all people to have their voices heard. Anyone can get atop a soapbox and start screaming obscenities, and other useless gibberish, the question is: When are you going to grow up?
I have no issue with opponents to health care reform protesting and getting loud with members of Congress. I have no problem with them doing civil disobedience. Hell, I’ve done all that for causes I was passionate about. It doesn’t even bother me that most of the groups organizing these events are funded by the insurance industry and Republican operatives. If supporters of health care reform want to win, then we have to out organize the opposition. Plain and simple.
But what does bother is the target of their protests - inside Congressional Town Hall Meetings. Congressional Town Hall Meetings that are set up to hear from ALL constituents. I disagree with shouting people down who you disagree with at these events. When I would go to Congressional Town Halls to protest the privatization of Social Security or the Iraq War, I never tried to drown out people who disagreed with me. I may have booed when they were done, but was never disruptive to the point where folks felt threatened or uncomfortable. I always let people who I disagree with speak to the Congressman/woman and finish their thought.
The difference now is that these “protests” are designed to not let any other message than the anti-reform message get heard. There are in depth instructions on how to shut down debate at the Town Halls. It includes spreading health care refrom opponents throughout the front half of the room for the perception of a majority, shout down the Representative, and shut our debate. You can find them here: http://www.beyondchron.org/articles/Memo_Details_Co_ordinated_Anti_Reform_Harrassment_Strategy_7209.html
Again, I support free speech for everyone. But, to have a strategy to shut down debate and not let constituents speak before their elected Representatives is wrong.
Some of the early posts to this blog were filled with more hatred than I’ve seen in a very long time. Look back. It’s a shame. I was raised to agree to disagree, share opinions, but walk away with no hate for your sparring partner. Seems to me that our leader with the nice smile and kind eyes is doing more to split us, than to bring us together. Seriously, hatred has not place in meaningful debate.
I’ve worked for a healthcare insurer for 32 years. We’re a not-for-profit which does not mean that we don’t make money, but the money we make is called “reserves” being placed in extremely secure investments, with minimum (and maximum) amounts held for catastrophic events. Our reserves generally insure that we have enough money on hand to pay claims for 3 to 6 months, with NO premium income, in the event something catastrophic happens. What, not all insurance companies are greedy gluts?
To my point, healthcare is an extremely complicated beast, with NO SIMPLE MONEY SAVING ANSWER, PERIOD. I could speak for days on how everyone in the circle points to the greed of someone else in the circle. “Docs charge to much”, “Hospital bills are outrageous”, “insurance companies are greedy”, on and on. Let’s see, those among us who are nurses and technicians want to be paid well by hospitals that need to buy expensive equipment because we want the best care. Docs compete with hospitals for the nurses, have to pay overhead, malpractice insurance, etc.. Drug companies spend billions developing new medications that we demand. Medicare and Medicaid reimburse hospitals and doctors less than their cost to provide us with services, hospitals provide free emergency care to patients that can’t pay, so this bad debt gets pushed to the insurance companies who are charging obscene rates (uh, because why?). See the picture?
A pure government run program simply will not save money and will absolutely cost ALL tax payers except those not working. It cannot save enough money to fund itself. My company works with hospital and doctors to reduce their administrative costs through all types of technology, with 94% of all of our claims received electronically. Been doing it for almost 30 years. There’s just not much more room for improvement that will save the industry the billions needed.
My observation is that we as a nation need to address the folks that don’t have adequate access to healthcare services because they cannot afford it. Let’s expand Medicare or Medicaid (without reducing benefits to the elderly) to cover the 1 out of 10 Americans that are unemployed, and the “working poor” that certainly cannot afford $800 a month for coverage. Let’s not jump out there and do something rash, such as a pure government model, blindly believing someone else will pay for it for me. Just ain’t so. We’ll all pay. Current system has flaws, but it is simply far more complex a fix than the average American (or the experts) realize.
I really believe most Americans (Democrats, Republicans, et al) don’t mind giving a little more to help those that truly can’t help themselves.
Seems the paid spin master scribbler Mike Hall is the one stirring to incite the cauldron of hate from a Fascist populist mob more than anyone else! Where is the truth based on Human reason for real solutions to the crisis which is nothing less than a new dark age? The go-along-to-get-along less than useless green anti-debating AFL-CIO now wants thuggery by anti-union Unionists! How was the USA destroyed and why did our so-called nations Unions and union members go along with this great crime of omission, as a process step by step for almost fifty years! Now the less than useless rabble within the union membership wants to ORGANIZE(Ha!) real Fascist mobs against so-called Fascists! This smacks of gang and counter gang tactics in the subject colonies of the empire, not republicans of a Republic. The Unions are fools, because they act foolish, if any amongst this lot has not yet noticed, the Obama health care reform is RATTIONING, it is pure evil, and in WW2 we fought a war against it, which some of you dupes today, make obviously clear you would not do like wise! Get your facts straight, and then commit to saving the nation from it’s real enemies, or else what little left of our Union movement will be finished off in the immediate period ahead.
August 9, 2009 (LPAC)– The following article will be the lead of the Aug. 14, 2009 issue of EIR.
From the Streets of America: The Mass Strike Revolt Is On
by Jeffrey Steinberg
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/11322
These are the exact same people who claimed during the last administration dissent was unpatriotic. Hypocrite thy name is REPUBLICAN!
Unfortunately, we don’t have $2 millions in cash to bribe our congressman & senator with. But we can sure remind them we will replace those who break their promise to give us much needed reform — most especially a public option. A strong public option is the ONLY way to motivate the health care industry to bring down their outrageous costs and to provide better service. It’s not about private insurance vs public insurance, it’s about giving us a CHOICE! Having both options available has brought costs down in other countries and it will here too. We just need to fight as hard as the opposition this next few weeks.
Despite the nasty lies and the di$information campaign and the intimidation attempts by thugs on the other side, most people favor a public option. WE ARE THE MAJORITY , so this makes us the centrist, moderate group and a public option is the CENTRIST position, something misrepresented in the corporate media time and again. We need to remember how effectively the Conservatives yelled over and over in the past they were the “silent majority” Well, things have changed, and we need to remind leaders the people voted for change and the Dems were given a huge mandate to provide it. The Party of NO is way out.